This week we get to answer a question from a listener on how to be a better typographer, and we are so excited about it! 

Featured Music:

Boygenius – Bite the Hand

Starflyer 59 – Wake up Early

Inspirations, Thoughts, Opinions, & Updates

What We’ve Been Up To

Michelle:

• Has limited the number of parties she’s going to this Christmas season, but is still watching many crappy Christmas movies
• Has been listening to girl bands on repeat
• And she is going to have the wrap party for the webisode series, Newclear Family, and she got to watch part of the unedited shots.

Brandi:

• Has also been watching Christmas movies, but she didn’t cry at the end of the Christmas Chronicles which Michelle is shocked about
• She did watch the “The Man Who Invented Christmas”, and it perfectly describes what a creative feels like when they get knocked out of their creative zone. Be listening for this topic in a future episode. *wink wink*
• Also watched “Into The Spiderverse” and it’s an epic work of creativity–Go see it!
• And she also had a great conversation with Hugh Weber, but she can’t talk about it too in depth. However, Hugh will be on some future episodes! He’s a fan of is, we’re a fan of him, it’s great.
• Oh! And she got her hair dyed this week! It’s called Oil Slick and it’s basically CMYK and amazing

[clear-line]

Five Ways to Be a Better Typographer 

1. Research Books (always)

   • LogoLounge & Other Logo Books
   • 1000 Series
   • Book Cover Design
   • Poster Design Books

2. Practice Being an Active Observer of Type

   • Type is everywhere, look at it closely
   • In one class Brandi had to do a project where she had to crop in closely on a single letter to study typefaces.
   • Look at individual letters, spaces between lines, really see the details.
   • Which you can use in the real world because once you know a font when you see it in the real world you can get a sense of what something is about based on the font it had. (i.e. Netflix original shows)

3. Become an “Art Director”

   • Look at and critique Kerning, Type Choices, and analyze every aspect of the type
   • Brandi also suggests to plan out your hierarchy. Hierarchy is the order you want your viewers to see your design. Study the layout, the sizes the colors. Where the letters are, even the spaces between the letters. Pretend to be an art director if that helps so you can get better at studying where everything is in your designs

4. Practice Combining Typefaces 

   • Once you understand typefaces you can start combining them together. Some fonts work really well together and can help you in design, but be aware that that also means some fonts don’t work well together. Know why you are combining typefaces together.

5. Play Games!

   • Brandi also has some font apps that she has on her phone to practice font recognition in a fun, interactive way.
     • What the Font
     • Brandi said Font Book but meant “The Font Game“
     • Arial vs. Helvetica

There’s a  lot more to fonts than you may think. Type has personalities just like people do.

THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!!!!

“I started listening months before I decided to launch an independent design business and binged until I caught up. Binge listener, which at the time was only about 15 episodes only. This has been so helpful as I started my own business only a few months ago. I am constantly referring new friends to this show. I appreciate that Brandi and Michelle are always responsive to their audience. I was thrilled when I sent a question on Instagram and it was answered in an episode. I am thrilled to hear that there will be book reviews in the near future. It can be overwhelming to know what to use to continue learning because there are never ending resources out there, but this will always be one of my regular listens. Keep it up ladies.”  – NaoGee on iTunes

Find us on all forms of social media via @BrandiSea on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and you can email us any burning questions you want Brandi to answer on an episode at brandi@brandisea.com.

THANK YOU to the ultra-talented  Vesperteen (Colin Rigsby) for letting us use his song (“Shatter in The Night”) as the intro and outtro for every episode of Design Speaks.

TRANSCRIPTION

Michelle: 00:00 I don’t think he’s terrible, it’s Kinda like, it’s Kinda like people don’t like Nickelback, like Nickelback isn’t that bad?

Michelle: 00:07 I said it, I said it. They have. It’s just really fun to make fun of them.

Brandi: 00:12 It’s just a taste thing.

Michelle: 00:13 It’s like Keanu, Nicholas Cage, and Nickleback, and I’m like … Really?

Intro dude: 00:21 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by a graphic design geek and a regular human being A.K.A a none designer. We chat about ,music, pop culture, cool places, and basically whatever we feel is relevant.

Brandi: 00:36 Hey guys, I’m Brandi Sea.

Michelle: 00:37 And I’m Michelle.

Brandi: 00:38 And you’re listening to episode 76 of Design Speaks.

Michelle: 00:41 On today’s episode we will be answering a question from a listener.

Brandi: 00:46 Woohoo, I love questions from a listener.

Michelle: 00:48 From a listener and listeners, multiple listeners. I’m sure that more than one person has this question. So I’m excited to get into it. Before that though, let’s talk about our weeks.

Brandi: 00:59 You first.

Michelle: 01:01 This week was just insane.

Brandi: 01:05 Should we establish every week from here until January is just insane?

Michelle: 01:08 It’s just insane in our lives. Yeah, I mean it’s Christmas time so it’s just. What do you, it’s what, what do you expect life minus like, like I’m kind of trying to take it chill with Christmas this year. Like I didn’t go crazy on presents and parties. I have a limit of how many parties I will go to this year, which is like one.

Brandi: 01:30 And you already went to it.

Michelle: 01:31 Um, like one outside of work.

Brandi: 01:32 Oh, okay.

Michelle: 01:33 So outside of work

Brandi: 01:34 So you went to both your’s and Kelly’s work parties?

Michelle: 01:36 Yeah. And now I have one and it’s tomorrow night. The end. That’s it.

Brandi: 01:40 This is this like the friendsgiving but friend Christmas.

Michelle: 01:45 No, this is a friend who’s throwing a Christmas party, like a Pajama Christmas party and we’re having breakfast for dinner and we’re doing like a sock exchange. So.

Brandi: 01:53 I want to invite myself because breakfast for dinner is all my dream.

Michelle: 01:56 It’s so good. It’s so good.

Brandi: 01:58 That’s fun. What else?

Michelle: 02:02 Um, as you might remember, I have been working on a production called New Clear Family. It’s going to be a five webisode series and we have already filmed everything we. It was, we had a blast and so now we’re in post production. We just got to meet a few days ago and look at what we filmed. Edited.

Brandi: 02:22 Is it so exciting.

Michelle: 02:24 So exciting.

Brandi: 02:25 Is it so satisfying?

Michelle: 02:26 Yes. It’s so cool. Like I know that what we shot just looks so cool. It looks good. We have not done anything with sound or coloring. Thankfully. I’m able to look past that, but we have a wrap party tonight, a wrap parties for the cast and crew who did everything like hooray. Congratulations. Good job. Thank you so much. Good job as pat yourself on the back. Um, and then we are going to have a viewing of one of the episodes undone, but it’s not finished but

Brandi: 02:52 A public viewing?

Michelle: 02:53 I mean

Brandi: 02:53 At the wrap party?

Michelle: 02:54 At the wrap party.

Brandi: 02:55 Okay, I gotcha.

Michelle: 02:55 Yeah. So I’m really excited to do that. So that’s also tonight. Um, otherwise I have been staying up late and watching crappy Christmas movies, which is not something I really ever done.

Brandi: 03:08 Is crappy subjective?

Michelle: 03:09 No, they’re bad. No, no, they’re bad. Um, maybe I shouldn’t have said that, but I’ve been

Brandi: 03:15 So then go onto tell us what they are and then you’re really gonna insult everybody and maybe I should just not tag.

Michelle: 03:20 I’m only going to talk about the ones that I kind of actually liked. Um, so I think I mentioned it before on the podcast at least even a few weeks ago. I love, love Christmas Chronicles. Um,

Brandi: 03:32 How many times have you seen it right now?

Michelle: 03:34 Four Times. Four Times. It’s so good. Um, I cry every time too. And then yesterday,

Brandi: 03:41 You’re such a crier.

Michelle: 03:42 I know,

Brandi: 03:42 I’m like when did she cry for this movie? I didn’t cry at all.

Michelle: 03:45 Oh my gosh. Did you watch Christmas Chronicles?

Brandi: 03:47 Yeah, I watched it with my kids.

Michelle: 03:48 At the end

Brandi: 03:48 And I wasn’t doing anything else. I was just watching the movie.

Michelle: 03:50 At the end when he puts up the ornament. Oh my gosh, it’s so good. So good.

Brandi: 03:58 You’re going to cry right now!

Michelle: 03:58 Okay. Um, and then yesterday I watched a Christmas Prince, which I liked. I didn’t expect to like it. I was like, oh my gosh.

Brandi: 04:04 It’s a guilty pleasure.

Michelle: 04:06 Instantly hooked. I was like, okay, well, okay one, I’ve realized that all Christmas movies start out the same. B Roll, just shots of New York. There’s only Christmas only happens in New York.

Brandi: 04:18 Or Chicago.

Michelle: 04:19 Very rarely Chicago, but yes, it’s just like

Brandi: 04:22 Because they’re the most snowy,

Michelle: 04:23 The windy city. I know, but it’s literally like here, it’s snowing in New York so it must be Christmas and I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s like the first, like five minutes of the movie is just shots of New York and an entire song and the entire Christmas song.

Brandi: 04:37 Yeah, that sounds right.

Michelle: 04:37 It sounds like it sounds like a jingle bell rock, but they have different lyrics because they can’t use jingle bell rock. So like that’s what I realized

Brandi: 04:46 They’re too poor to pay. They’re too cheap, not to poor they’re just too cheap to pay for the rights.

Michelle: 04:51 We have the budget. We’re not going to because what they are doing.

Brandi: 04:54 That’s hilarious.

Michelle: 04:54 So that’s been my week, um, I also have been getting really, really into girl bands. I like, I like, proud to be girl band girlfriend.

Brandi: 05:05 Like girl fronted bands or like girl bands in a band?

Michelle: 05:08 It could. All of the above.

Brandi: 05:10 Okay.

Michelle: 05:10 Um, there are a few artists out there that I’ve just been listening to on repeat, like

Brandi: 05:16 Shawn Mendez isn’t a girl.

Michelle: 05:17 Oh, I know, but he’s still really good. He’s got good. Um, I like his, I like his guitar, the like I’ve been like really just listening for everything. And his voice, of course, is just heavenly, but there is, there are two girls that I’ve been listening to, Phoebe, Phoebe Bridgers, and Julien Baker, they have some stuff on Spotify and it is so good. They have incredible voices. They are musicians. They have and together along with another girl, her name is Lacey, something that starts with a d. I’m bad. I’m together. All three of those girls have a band called Boy Genius. Um, so I have brought one of their songs this week. Um, the song is called Bite the Hand. It’s the first song off of their album boygenius. It’s just self-titled. So let’s take a listen.

Michelle: 06:52 So that’s just a little taste of what it is. It’s super vibey they have, they have. These girls are like, the album is great. They are even better live. Like, oh my gosh, go look them up on Youtube. Go Watch performances are incredible. They remind me of Isley a little bit. A little bit.

Brandi: 07:14 I was thinking they have like a sixties, sixties acoustic vibe. Her voice is very. Um, I can’t think of the artist from the sixties, but I see her in

Michelle: 07:25 like Stevie Nicks.

Brandi: 07:26 Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Michelle: 07:27 Yeah. So I, I love it. And also it’s Lucy, Lucy Decorous, not Lacey. Lucy. Lucy, sorry Lucy. Sorry about that. But um, I’ve been obsessed on repeat and usually when I listened to the entire album of boygenius, it automatically just goes to Julien Baker. So I listen to all her stuff and then it goes to Phoebe Bridgers.

Michelle: 07:49 I’m obsessed.

Brandi: 07:50 That’s amazing. I like it a lot.

Michelle: 07:52 Super Vibey. They’ve got like really cool, like it gets me in the zone and I don’t think that they’re, um, lyrics are so distracting that I have to pay attention.

Brandi: 08:03 Yeah.

Michelle: 08:04 I can just listen and go.

Brandi: 08:05 It feels like winter.

Michelle: 08:06 Yeah, for sure. What about your week?

Brandi: 08:08 Let’s see. Um, my week. Let’s see, we went to the office Christmas party for you guys.

Michelle: 08:14 Right?

Brandi: 08:14 That was fun. I played a little bit of a Jack Box, which I always enjoy

Michelle: 08:20 Yes. I knew it’d be a hit.

Brandi: 08:21 Yeah. Oh, it’s fun. Um, watched a couple movies. So one was The Man who Invented Christmas and this is something that I want to have a topic on soon because Um, it’s basically. Do you know what it’s about?

Michelle: 08:36 No.

Brandi: 08:36 So it’s with. Oh my gosh. All the names are going away from my mind right now. Downton Abbey, the one that plays the main husband guy, not the old, not the dad.

Michelle: 08:50 Oh, Cousin Matthew.

Brandi: 08:50 Yes.

Michelle: 08:51 Um Dan Stevens.

Brandi: 08:52 Dan Stevens.

Michelle: 08:53 I’m in.

Brandi: 08:53 Okay. So he plays Charles Dickens.

Michelle: 08:56 Okay. Oh, I’ve heard of this. Got It. Okay. Because I followed Dan Stevens on Instagram.

Brandi: 08:59 It’s so good. First of all, um, it’s basically the story of how a Christmas Carol came to be written.

Michelle: 09:06 Oh, nice.

Brandi: 09:06 And um,

Michelle: 09:07 So it’s kind of like a finding Neverland type of story.

Brandi: 09:10 Somewhat, yeah. Yeah. Very, very similar to that. So part of it, the part that really stuck out to me, so obviously it’s a really great movie, so that’s step one. Step two was, um, there’s throughout the movie, he basically, when he gets into the zone of writing and creating, they, they kind of show it as if he’s physically talking to the characters he writes. He’s writing about um, it’s like they are showing him who they are.

Michelle: 09:37 It’s almost, I know why you like it. It’s like midnight in Paris.

Brandi: 09:42 It’s kinda like that. Um, but what, what got to me was he like gets in these zones and he’s in his office and um, he’s like thinking through things out loud and talking to these characters and then someone will knock on his door and then all the music and all the talking and all of this stuff stops and it’s just quiet. And he’s like, no. And I was like, that is a perfect representation of

Michelle: 10:06 Being in the zone and being interrupted.

Brandi: 10:08 Of being in the creative zone and how that feels to a creative. Like, because you can’t explain. It’s hard to explain that to a non-creative. Like what that’s like when you’re in the zone of writing or editing or you designing

Michelle: 10:20 You have to be in a zone to do it.

Brandi: 10:22 Like it just throws you completely off-kilter. And I was like, this is the best illustration. it just throws you completely off kilter. And I was like, this is the best illustration. So I don’t know if we can find like a clip of just that little spot and lik, because you don’t even need to see it. It’s what you hear and the feel of the, the audible sounds that are like gives you this like anxiety about oh, he was onto something.

Michelle: 10:46 Right.

Brandi: 10:46 So, um,

Michelle: 10:47 Where did you to watch that.

Brandi: 10:48 It’s on, it’s on Netflix right now. It’s either Netflix or Amazon Prime. I can’t remember which,

Michelle: 10:53 Well both are very accessible. So. Okay, cool.

Brandi: 10:56 So I think, uh, I want to do an episode on like focus and being interrupted and maintaining focus or something.

Michelle: 11:05 And then also being kind about it. Oh my gosh, that’s the hardest part is being nice about like being interrupted. Especially like now for me, my job has changed a little tiny bit and I have to be in the zone a heck of a lot more. And so when people come up to me and say, Hey Michelle, I’m like, take a deep breath, you were in the zone, you can get back in it.

Brandi: 11:26 It’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay. So anyway, so saw that, had a really awesome and illuminating phone call with Hugh Weber. I can’t really talk much about any of the things that we talked about except for to say he is probably going to be coming on every now and then onto the podcast to just chat with us.

Michelle: 11:40 Say Hey.

Brandi: 11:41 Because he’s awesome and he has a lot of wisdom to share.

Michelle: 11:43 That he does. If you don’t know Hugh Weber, go back a few episodes. We did an interview with him. He has a lot of great insight, is very encouraging.

Brandi: 11:51 He’s a fan and we’re a fan of him.

Michelle: 11:54 Yes, exactly. A mutual fanship.

Brandi: 11:56 So that was, that was awesome. And lastly, last night I went to see “Into the, Is it into the Spider-verse”?

Michelle: 12:05 I don’t know, something like that. It’s an animated

Brandi: 12:08 It’s the new Spiderman animated movie.

Michelle: 12:10 I have not seen it yet, but I have watched that trailer. I don’t know how many times.

Brandi: 12:14 So I could practically give an entire episode over to this, which says a lot for me, um, for this movie, but basically, um, I’ll say just a few things to tell you why you should see it. Um, one, if you are a fan of comics, this is the most, um, if you were to animate like, like just take a comic and directly animate it. It would feel like this is like,

Michelle: 12:39 I love it, I love it. I love that.

Brandi: 12:40 Just like we took the content, we took the story and made a movie. It’s like it feels like you’re watching a live comic for one, which I love.

Michelle: 12:48 And one thing that I was really appreciative of in the, at least in the trailer is that they explained the multiple universe thing, which has always been a hangup of mine.

Brandi: 12:59 Yeah.

Michelle: 12:59 I’m just like, look, I get that there are different stories. I don’t understand why.

Brandi: 13:03 Right. And so I was skeptical going in because I was like, I know about these multiple universes, multiple universes. I know that they exist. I don’t know how they’re going to explain it well enough for it to be cohesive. Like I was like, it’s just going to be a mess.

Michelle: 13:17 That’s what you assume.

Brandi: 13:18 And it’s not a mess. They do such an incredible job with it. The voice acting, they’ve got like Nicholas Cage, which is the best. I’m a big fan and I know, he’s terrible. But I’m sorry.

Michelle: 13:31 No!

Brandi: 13:31 Lots of people do not like Nicholas Cage. I don’t think he’s terrible.

Michelle: 13:33 It’s kind of like, it’s kind of like people don’t like Nickelback like it.

Brandi: 13:38 Is it something about the name Nick,

Michelle: 13:40 Something about the name Nick. Um Nickelback isn’t that bad? I said it. I said it. They have. It’s just really fun to make fun of them.

Brandi: 13:49 It’s just a taste thing.

Michelle: 13:50 It’s like Keanu, Nicholas Cage.

Brandi: 13:52 Keanu! I love Keanu also.

Michelle: 13:53 I’m all really.

Brandi: 13:54 And I do, I really do. Um, so, so they do a good job with the multiple universe thing. The animation style is unique, like to such a degree that I can even explain it. It’s like some scenes you’re, you’re convinced that it’s like just an animated overlay over real people, which it might be. I’m not really sure. I haven’t dug very deep into it. Um just the effects that I, ugh, everything. Everything. I want to go see it like three more times.

Michelle: 14:23 And you should.

Brandi: 14:23 It’s designed well. Even like the intros for like when they just show the film company before the movie even starts.

Michelle: 14:29 So cool.

Brandi: 14:30 Like everything’s so great

Michelle: 14:31 Detail oriented.

Brandi: 14:32 Yeah, it’s really, really good. So, um, saw that last night and my song, we’re going to go way back to 2004. Um, I don’t know if any of you remember or even know about shoegazing music shoe gazer this whole style from about that time of the year of the year of years, those years.

Michelle: 14:52 Of that year. It was a moment in time.

Brandi: 14:54 This band is called Starflyer 59 and it’s actually like one, mainly one guy and his band, which was a huge thing at the time too. Um, and basically, I don’t remember why I was listening to the Christmas playlist that I have put together over the past few years on Spotify and they had like a Christmas song on there and it just popped up in my shuffle and I was like, oh, Starflyer 59. I love you so much. How could I ever forget you? So I’ve been listening to a lot of Starflyer 59 this week, so one of my favorite Starflyer songs is called, um, Wake Up Early and here it is.

Brandi: 16:37 You have a face. I want to know what that face means.

Michelle: 16:37 It reminds me of being in high school. I like it

Brandi: 16:41 Because were you in high school in 2004?

Michelle: 16:44 Oh yeah, I was a sophomore.

Brandi: 16:45 Okay.

Michelle: 16:46 So yeah, it reminds me of just that feel of music, it reminds me of going to these festivals. It reminds me of just like that age and that time of my life. So I like it.

Brandi: 16:58 I mean obviously I haven’t, I didn’t listen to it for any like, vibe reason as far as like the mood I was in necessarily like I usually do. It was more like, man, I forgot how much I love these guys and this guy and the lyrics are just, it feels easy. Like it’s just so it’s not chill, but it’s not, not chill. Like it’s not super motivating necessarily. It’s just like this feels good. This is a little bit of surfer for guitar in there, which I love. Um, I love where he says, I travel light. No time for slumber. It’s just like this, this easy-going idea of like nothing. There shouldn’t be anything to tie me down. Like I wake up early, I’m ready to go. Like maybe a little motivating, but that’s not why I’ve been listening to it anyways. There’s a whole. He’s made albums up until 2016, but the ones that I was like hardcore into where like 2004 through 2011 maybe. So.

Michelle: 17:56 Okay, they got some stuff out there for us to listen to.

Brandi: 17:58 They’ve got some good stuff.

Michelle: 17:58 And you can listen to our songs on the music from design speak playlist on Spotify list. Podcast playlist on Spotify.

Brandi: 18:07 Yeah.

Michelle: 18:08 This week we got a question from a listener. Her name is Eva. She actually wrote you

Brandi: 18:15 An email! The new old-fashioned way.

Michelle: 18:18 Yay, I like it. I like it a lot. Um, she says “I’m a new designer who dreams about becoming a true typographer and good designer. And I was hoping you could share with me what you have used yourself to become a good typographer for looking forward to keep, keep learning from you and getting more and more inspired. Thanks Brandi. So let’s start with that.

What tools did you use to become a good typographer?

Brandi: 18:44 Um, okay. So in the, in the early days of a long time ago, when I first started school, um, was 2001, um, design school. Well, let’s see, 2003. I officially started design school in 2003 and one of the first things that I was, something that I will always remember and honestly, I would love to start doing this just as like a poster series or something. They had us do multiple type projects. And what these, what these projects had us do was to look to learn how to look closely at letters and at the forms that the letters form.

Michelle: 19:24 Yeah.

Brandi: 19:24 So, um, so one of the projects was we could choose any typeface and choose one letter from that typeface and crop it, crop it all the way in, really up close. So you could see some sort of detail on it, but not really, not really tell exactly what letter is. It was almost like abstract art, but it forced you to look really closely at the details so that when it blew up to like an eight by eight size, it was like, that’s so cool.

Michelle: 19:48 That is really a really good idea.

Brandi: 19:50 Yeah. Because then it’s not like you’re just looking at this word with all these letters. It’s like you’re looking at each individual letter very intently. Um, we also had these type books at the time because it was. Everything wasn’t digital yet.

Michelle: 20:04 Right.

Brandi: 20:04 Um, so we literally, it was like they would, it was a book full of fonts that the school gave us that gave us the typeface, all the letters and numbers and symbols of the alphabet in order of size from like 5 to like 36 point.

Michelle: 20:19 Okay.

Brandi: 20:19 So if you wanted to design something for a project, you had to trace it from there or go photocopy it and enlarge it and trace it from there. Like, it wasn’t just like at this point they didn’t want us getting on the computer and like going and just choosing a size like it wanted you to practice writing these letters and I will say that this was step one in making me fall in love with letterforms and the intricacies of a typeface and how typefaces have personality, um, which is something that I’ve actually done a presentation on seeing type and how typefaces have personality just like people do. Um, and it also made me appreciate like the craft behind developing a font, like a typeface. So that was step one is like learning how to look closely at, at, at letters.

Brandi: 21:06 Um, another one is. So basically just practice being an active observer of type. So from that point, it was like I fell in love with letters and typefaces and started to look everywhere at them to see how they were done. So magazines do it really well for like they use typefaces really well on article titles. Even the covers of magazines, like why did Vogue choose this typeface? And Elle chose a similar one but not exactly the same, um, you know, brands for fashion like set aside, set out like a bunch of different fashion brands and see the similarities in the styles they choose. Like anything, you can look at literally anything that is type or designed with type, and like become an active observer and just be very aware that there is type all over.

Michelle: 21:58 Mmhmm, yeah I see it everywhere. I think my favorite thing to see is when it’s just like you’re trying to highlight a specific phrase within a saying or sentence and that specific phrase is something, a different type honestly.

Brandi: 22:11 So like pull quotes, movie titles, like title sequences are usually very well designed. Um, Netflix has gotten really good at it with all their like original series because, you know, they don’t really advertise anywhere.

Michelle: 22:23 Nope.

Brandi: 22:23 They kind of just to give you the feel of it

Michelle: 22:26 It has to immediately be appealing.

Brandi: 22:27 Right. And so look at type. Ask yourself why, what does this typeface say to me and why? So on Netflix, there’s a new show called Maniac, um on Netflix. It’s an, an original. And before I saw the preview, I got a feeling of what this show might be about.

Michelle: 22:45 Okay.

Brandi: 22:45 Um, and so that’s just like a fun mental exercise because it teaches you how to choose typefaces by the feelings that they give.

Michelle: 22:53 It’s kind of like when we talked about a while back in an episode where you go look at the book cover and trying to figure out what the book is about before you read anything about it

Brandi: 23:01 Exactly and the typeface is as a huge part of that. So yeah, look, being an active observer everywhere. Um, another thing is a practice combining typefaces. So I, and I’ve said before and we did, we did a full episode on like what makes a good design. And part of that I, I recall and we’ll have to look at, we’ll have to check back for the show notes, what episode number that was when we talked about what makes a good design. But part of it was the type, the typefaces that you choose. How you work with type make is what determines a good design versus a not good design.

Michelle: 23:35 I’ve seen it a lot recently, I won’t say where, where they put the wrong ones together and it just feels so disconnected that. And I’m glad thankfully the people called them out and was like, this doesn’t work because. And I was like, oh good, I can, I don’t know that I can say that, um, because it’s not my job there. Um, but it, when you use the wrong one, it’s just like, why did you do that? You didn’t have a reason, right? So in like, I just knew it was wrong.

Brandi: 24:01 Yeah. And the cool thing is, is that um, there are like quote unquote rules to combining typefaces. And I say that loosely because it’s one of those things where you have to know the rules before you can break them in design. You should always know what the rules are and then you should break them, break out of them, but know why. So it’s like they used to say never mixed patterns when you know, choosing typefaces is like choosing your outfit. Like can you wear white after Labor Day? Of course, you can do whatever you want. Can you mix polka dots and stripes that used to be like, no,

Michelle: 24:34 Oh, I remember.

Brandi: 24:35 But it’s like, okay, but how are you doing it? Does it work cohesively? And if it works for the, like the look you’re trying to portray, then it’s probably fine if the typefaces seem disconnected but they actually work for your message for some reason, then that’s fine. But if you’re just choosing random stuff just to choose random stuff.

Michelle: 24:55 Don’t do it.

Brandi: 24:55 Then don’t do it. So obviously always with why, but learn how to combine typefaces. Go to the rules, like the simple rules like combined a Sans Serif with Serif, combine thick with thin. Like all those things are going to just make your work that much more cohesive and you will be a better um, typographer to do that. Um, another thing that I will say is becoming a quote like “art director”. And what I mean by that is the job of an art director, part of the job of an art director is to look at not only at the type choices but how the type is actually laid out. Look at hierarchy. Um, like in the process of getting to a finished design, one of the key processes is, and this will talk, we’ll get to talk about this more when I talk about, um, the process. We’re going to do a big process series in the new year.

Michelle: 25:46 I’m so excited!

Brandi: 25:47 Um so part of the actual execution of your design. There’s a whole other planning phase in that where you need to plan out your hierarchy. Hierarchy is the order that you want people to see every item on your design. So if you have a picture, a headline and some subtext you decide as the designer by how you lay it out and the size and the color and the contrast of everything, what things you are guiding the designer, the sorry, the viewer to see first. Um, so what an art director does is looks at everything on a page and decides whether that type is done in the right order. You look at the kerning and the letting. That’s the space between letters, the space between the lines to make sure nothing’s bleeding into each other. Nothing’s touching. Um, really be that detailed person and that will make you like the closer you look at like a full design with the type and everything. If you can pretend to be an art director, if you’re not an art director, you will become a better designer.

Michelle: 26:49 I think something that is important to recognize is that, yeah, to add to an extent, you just have an eye like you see that something’s good or bad and you maybe just don’t know why, but the rest of it really is learning and practicing in acquiring. Um, so all of this stuff, it just takes time. But it’s good to know and it’s a great question because where do you start? Like, it’s like how do I read the Bible? I don’t know. You don’t start from Genesis. So, yeah. It’s like, okay, at some point you’re going to get really overwhelmed. So these are really good. First steps to take.

Brandi: 27:24 Yeah, so the last two are pretty easy. Um, read logo books, look at type, look at design books. Um, logo books are nice because you get to see how other people use typefaces in logos. I have just a very few of the 1000 Series. It’s like a thousand greetings thousand type treatments. There’s like, they’re kind of older, but I’ve gotten a lot of stuff out of them. Logo Lounge on the ones that put out the logo trends every year they put out logo books, um, poster books and book covers. We talked about that.

Michelle: 27:55 Yep.

Brandi: 27:55 So just lots. Any book that basically, um, features design will have type in it. And that’s good, that’s a good habit. Um, the last thing is, um, I have to type games,

Michelle: 28:03 Type games?

Brandi: 28:05 Games on phone.

Michelle: 28:05 Oh my gosh. Of course.

Brandi: 28:07 One actually isn’t a game. It’s What the Font.

Michelle: 28:09 Oh yes.

Brandi: 28:10 Basically if you’re looking at a design and you, you want to start learning typeface names, you basically take a picture of a font and it’ll, it’ll go into the type database and give you ideas of what that font might be.

Michelle: 28:22 Right.

Brandi: 28:23 And the last one is called Font Book and it’s basically just a quiz on, can you name this typeface.

Michelle: 28:30 Which is just fun. It’s kind of like me taking Buzzfeed quiz for quizzes for Harry Potter. And I’m like, I know all the answers,

Brandi: 28:36 But it actually, it helped you recognize the types. I actually even have one that’s Helvetica versus Aerial. That’s all it is. That’s the whole type game. And then because they’re so similar and it teaches you how to figure out which one’s which. And it just gives you, again, an eye for detail and I on the intricacies of a typeface. That’s everything.

Michelle: 28:57 I love it. So those are like, what, six or seven? Practical

Brandi: 29:02 Five?

Michelle: 29:03 Really five. That’d be a great way. I have one. I wrote some of them down and then I stopped. Why? I don’t know.

Brandi: 29:08 My list has Five. But you may have categorized them differently than I did. And maybe I said one more

Michelle: 29:12 True.

Brandi: 29:12 I don’t know.

Michelle: 29:13 Well thankfully we have show notes so.

Brandi: 29:14 Yay! Thank you, Joelle. Joelle is our awesome show notes producer gal.

Michelle: 29:21 Yes.

Brandi: 29:23 We will tag her on all our Instagram stuff. So you can find her.

Michelle: 29:28 That sounds great. And then she, um, if you have any like, I don’t know, questions for her, you can email us. Let me go into this.

Brandi: 29:34 Okay.

Michelle: 29:34 We actually heard from someone, um, her name is nay, I think her name is Naomi. Her handle is Nao G.

Brandi: 29:43 Yep.

Michelle: 29:43 We’ve read something from her before, but that was not on our  iTunes account.

Brandi: 29:48 She actually a big fan.

Michelle: 29:49 Yeah. She went and rated and reviewed our podcast on iTunes. Five stars.

Brandi: 29:55 Yay!

Michelle: 29:55 And the title is one of our regulars. So Nao G. said, “I started listening months before I decided to launch an independent design business and binged until I caught up. Binge listener, um, which at the time was only about 15 episodes only. This has been so helpful as I started my business a few months ago. I am constantly referring new friends to this show. I appreciate that Brandi and Michelle are responsive to their audience. I was thrilled when I sent a question on Instagram and heard it answered in an episode. I’m also pumped to hear there will be book reviews coming in the future, very near future.”

Brandi: 30:30 Yes.

Michelle: 30:30 Um, it can be overwhelming to know what to use to continue learning because there are never-ending resources out there, but this will always be one of my regular listens. Keep it up, ladies.

Brandi: 30:40 Oh,

Michelle: 30:41 That is like, I could cry.

Brandi: 30:44 It gave me the chills.

Michelle: 30:44 I love it. Thank you so much.

Brandi: 30:45 Michelle’s eyes are literally tearing up.

Michelle: 30:47 But I mean I cried

Brandi: 30:48 She is a crier, but let’s be real. It’s because she feels.

Michelle: 30:50 I feel so deeply.

Brandi: 30:52 I must not; like, I’m just dead inside. Apparently.

Michelle: 30:55 Soulless.

Brandi: 30:56 I’m not a ginger even, how does that happen??

Michelle: 30:59 I don’t know. Maybe deep down you are.

Brandi: 31:01 Really quick. The other thing I did this week, I got my hair done.

Michelle: 31:09 Yes.

Brandi: 31:09 And it looks amazing. It’s CMYK hair. That’s all I can say.

Michelle: 31:10 Okay. Go look at her Instagram.

Brandi: 31:12 Continue.

Michelle: 31:12 Um, if you would like to rate and review us on Instagram or on iTunes, we would really appreciate it. Basically all we’re asking as of right now for you to do, if you have you, if you find value in something you’ve heard, let us know. Share it with friends, refer people over to our podcast. We are here for you. So go rate and review us. Leave us in a review and we will read it. We love interacting with you and just seeing who you are. Um, knowing that we’re just not talking to nothing, we’re talking to something.

Brandi: 31:42 We’re talking to you. Um, so I’m just gonna throw this out there. I just thought about this. If you guys screenshot you sharing the podcast with a friend, I will enter you to win a poster from me.

Michelle: 31:54 Yes. That’s so cool.

Brandi: 31:56 So screenshot something that you and I will send you one of my posters.

Michelle: 32:01 Giveaway! That’ll be so cool. So we’ll make that a thing right here on the spot.

Brandi: 32:05 Yeah. Merry Christmas.

Michelle: 32:06 You can find us on all forms of social media via @brandisea. Can you spell your name for them?

Brandi: 32:10 B, R, A, N, D, I, S, E, A

Michelle: 32:13 And you can give us your feedback there. Um, we’re on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, um, basically anything you can also email us, brandi@brandisea.com. And a huge thanks to Vesperteen for allowing us to use his song Shattered in the Night as the intro and outro to our podcast. I think that’s it.

Brandi: 32:32 Yay, so next week will bring Christmas music.

Michelle: 32:35 Oh boy, I got. I’m going to go find some Christmas music then. That can’t be Sleeping at Last.

Brandi: 32:41 No, let’s do something out of the box.

Michelle: 32:43 Out of the box. Okay.

Brandi: 32:44 Something out of the box for us.

Michelle: 32:46 Okay.

Brandi: 32:46 Sleeping at Last, might be out of the box for some people, but not us.

Michelle: 32:48 That’s true. Not us.

Brandi: 32:49 All right, so we’ll see you guy next week.