Thank You To

TRANSCRIPTION  of Chapter 4 of Season 2

The Importance of Story in Your Business and Branding

00:00:05 – 00:05:06

Welcome to design speaks the podcast helps you use uncommon inspiration. So you can overcome creative block make better work. I’m your host Brandy see joining me is my co-host Julie Haider this week. We’re going to be talking about storybrand with certified storybrand guide. Eric Williams. Stay tuned for that month later in the hi Julie. Hey Brandy, how’s it going on good. So we have a really special guest but first I have to ask you. What is your favorite book? That’s a hard question because it’s hard to choose just took it is it is so let me just say like what book have you read? Maybe more than any other book? Yeah. Okay, so definitely my top two. Pride and Prejudice is one that I really love I try to read every year or every couple of years and then the other one I’m calling it a book, but it’s kind of a Trilogy and I know you sure this is going nowhere. This is going Lord of the Rings. Obviously. It’s just a classic. I know girl me too. It’s just it’s so good life. I started I started listening to it on audiobook again recently with doing lots of driving and stuff and I was just like, wow, I kind of forgot how amazing this I just start to sell Marillion. That one’s intense. It doesn’t quite have the same Cadence but Tolkien is my absolute favorite. I would probably have to say that if I had to choose one book, I would probably categorize it similar to you like the Lord of the Rings probably by far. I also just really love. I love stories where like someone overcomes something like nobody I say nobody but if you if you know me at all, you know that I hate movies that life. They don’t have to like have a happy ending but where the ending just seems like life like normal life works just like anything could happen. There’s no clear like yeah, she said that either yeah, anything or even if it like just doesn’t turn out the way you thought because it’s like you the story is driving you somewhere. Yeah, except for I will say one of my favorite books is Ernest Hemingway’s A moveable Feast and that’s more like a memoir. There’s not any clearer. I don’t know. We’ll say hero and guide and everyone will kind of get with that means here in a few. But yeah. So today we’re going to be talking all about why people love and need a good story and you may be wondering what that has to do with design or being an entrepreneur or creative professional but just you wait. So yeah. I agree with you and I do love a good story and I love the Lord of the Rings too. So I honestly I’ll be real I didn’t have time to write up my inspiration this week, but I do have a song. Yep. So what have you been listening to lately? So I have a friend and he has a side band. He used to play with a group called Family Force 5 and his name is Derek and he has a side band called Club danger and they’re like sort of this electronic music. So my favorite song this week that I’ve been listening to a whole bunch is wish you well by Club danger to believe when you really feel so much off. They convince myself. It’s not Let me go I wish you off from a girl’s it is almost like Club Music which is funny that they’re called stump grinder, but I chose this song because it took reminds me of this idea that sometimes we give up on trusting people but that we can we can still wish them. Well, we can still want good things for them and ultimately like that’s really good for our mental health and our creativity can be really stifled when we maybe see other people that are doing cool things and you know, I’ve honestly had experiences where I see I’ve had clients go to what I might consider be like the the competition Except that I realized that scarcity is not real that there is enough work to go around and that I can still wish people. Well, even if maybe they didn’t go about things right or they they treated me poorly in the process of getting things that they wanted and it’s a really upbeat song for something that could be I guess.

00:05:06 – 00:10:01

This is a trend for me this season. It’s just upbeat songs for things that might not otherwise be upbeat topics, but they’re always really good reminders to me. So I’ve been listening to this song A lot and I hope that you check it out on our Spotify playlist music from designed to broadcast from the south off my portion of the blame. You can be yours. Again. The song is wish you well by Club danger, so I don’t log Don’t know how much you like sort of like Clubby type music. I generally don’t but yeah same here. This one’s really fun. So they’re very Anthony. They have they have had a few songs that are played before like sports sports sports. So, what have you been up to Julie? Well, I’ve been in the garden a little bit working on harvesting things. Oh, yeah, which is like I was not sure if we would get to this point of to be honest. Yes, like I didn’t know if they would survive long enough to what were you hoping you would Harvest what does the office looked like? Yes. Okay, so I have cherry tomatoes. That was a little bit of a mistake on my part. I won’t do those again not so why I love cherub. NATO’s Anthony and I don’t eat tomatoes when we lost to me like crazy. Yeah, we wanted a tomato plant to make salsa, but I didn’t really think through that cherry tomatoes. You’d have to build up a lot to be able to make salsa. I just chose a variety that works well in containers cuz we we can’t plant in our life like because of our backyard and we rent and everything we camp back there. So everything’s in containers got it. So I was like, I’m going to be smart and buy a variety that grows well in containers and then it started harvesting them in the summer and I realized is going to take a very long time to make some salsa. Oh, but they’re so good. I will say though. So we planted three different kinds of peppers and that has gone extremely well, like my serrano peppers the plant is like as tall as me, which I know I know but it’s huge mine does. I mean you’re at least five foot right Julie. Yes, Darlin. Okay, that’s a pretty tall plant. It’s huge. I mean it’s a little off the ground because of the container but it’s ginormous pack and it’s just constantly like it’s been growing peppers for months. And so there’s only so many things you can do with Serano peppers. I feel like so I’m I’m trying to get creative freedom because I know what a serrano pepper looks like so we’ll just I mean, it’s like a classic little green pepper. It’s really great and Indian food which we cook from time to time while yeah like you could do some things with it, but you should you use it sparingly in recipes, so And I have a lot of peppers. Okay? Okay. Yeah, I have been growing things and we have our tomato plant is blooming and flowering but there are zero tomatoes on it really is it a tomato plant that needs to pollinate cross-pollinate you are asking the wrong person. I don’t know. What what would that entail? Okay, so I ask is because I have a cucumber plant which I almost killed during we have one of the time doing concrete. Everybody’s saying that I’m like what I mean. So like half the plant died just from the sun because it was just like so intense but the other half way up into the peppers and so it’s kind of using the pepper plants as a trellis, but it’s like shadier over there so that half of the plate is fine, but they’ve been blooming for like a game. Three months and I hadn’t seen a single cucumber and I was like what the heck so I asked a friend who was harvesting cucumbers and she was like, well, there’s two kinds of flowers on the plant balance, and they have to be you know, they have to pollinate. Otherwise, you’re not going to get a cucumber out of it and I was like, oh, okay. So I guess I haven’t seen very many bees this year. So I thought I started doing the pollinating myself, but with tomatoes, I think there’s some plants that like you have to have two of them. Okay, make it work. Maybe that’s the deal. So we’ve got a green chilies growing green.

00:10:01 – 00:15:04

Chili, New Mexico green chile. We have poblanos strawberries raspberries and cucumbers. And the tomato plant is humongous. But yeah, it’s doing absolutely nothing. So we’ll be we’ll be happy to take all of your little baby Tomatoes. We had just last year and that’s all we ate. May I wish I liked them. I just keep putting them in a little baggie and throwing them in the freezer and hoping that they’ll be okay when I have enough to do something with tomato soup tomato sauce the world’s tiniest bowl of tomato soup. Oh my gosh little mouse. I was thinking like, huh if I made some salsa, it could just look like a little appetizer like, just like off or when chip. I think you’d be surprised at how much they make when you have a bunch of them. I think that’s true. I think you’d be surprised. Yeah, I guess we’ll find out I guess we will. So you’ll have to Pardon for those of you who are maybe wondering why we are talking about this. I don’t know if you found this video and are like what they doing wage. We are actually waiting for Eric Williams who is a certified storybrand guide. He’s going to be dialing in for us to chat with him about what story brand is and may have lots of really great questions to ask him. He actually has helped me quite a bit with kind of crafting my my story brand framework since I shifted over from being a freelance independent graphic designer and creative director to being a creative coach and Design strategist, so he really he really helped me. I I knew a lot about my client already. I really kind of had already gone through the process of understanding like what I wanted from my business and everything, but he really helped me kind of iron out like some of the bumps and yes figure out how I wanted to say things like on my website to really make sure that I’m sending the right message and communicating clearly so I can’t wait to have him on here. We you and I both love story brand we’ve been talking about it on and off but yeah, as long as I’ve known about it, and so I think that I hope that people will get a lot out of it. Yeah, I think like knowing how to speak to your boss and putting that out on your website and just like everywhere where you’re communicating. It’s so important to have a clear message and to know and it just like it takes the guessing out of it and then you know wage. You’re putting out something that people can resonate with and respond to instead of being like well, I hope this is right. I hope somebody connects with this. Yes, ma’am. Hello? Hello. How are you? Eric? Welcome to design speaks podcasts you are live on video and in our ears off, so we were just we were just kind of shooting the breeze a little bit and bantering a tiny bit about what story how important story brand has been to us, but we have not really gone into anything more than that. So if you wouldn’t mind introduce yourself just a bit. Give us your little elevator pitch. Well, my name is Eric Williams. I’m a storybrand guide and I’m the owner of two and two Consulting and basically what I do is I help people and Brands make their stuff better because we know that there’s a lot of times where you are really good at what you do, but it’s tough for you to expect. Wayne what that is to others and so I partner alongside of people if you have a good product or a good service we help you talk about what you do in order to get your customers to listen, man. You must do this for a living wage. You’re really good. Yeah. So Eric and I met through basically, they’re my husband. They they both work together over at Sagebrush Church on the creative team. So what do you do there? And what do you do as a storybrand guide for creatives specifically? Yeah, so I worked for the last I don’t know probably decades actually in the half in the ministry in church world doing marketing Communications. And so, you know, if you are a believer that you know, if you are a Christian then you kind of know that The Greatest Story Ever Told so to speak it would be, you know, the story of the Bible story of Jesus and so trying to help other people off. Into that and understand what it is that God has called them to do and so basically any of the Ministries any of the areas, we we try and do a better job of writing more compelling words and you know writing scripts and really just trying to communicate in a way that that really makes Church tangible four people on that aspect.

00:15:04 – 00:20:37

But as far as working with creatives, whether it’s a designer or a video team member or even speaker if you’re delivering a keynote or like in the church world of a sermon you’re trying to make sure that the message that you’re putting out there is compelling in a way that gets the listener up to be the hero of that story because we’re all walking around as Heroes of Our Own Story. And so however, we can step alongside of that person to do whatever it is. So if I’m working with a creative it may be trying to help them understand the call to action that we have for them that particular week or the point of the story awesome. So we have briefly talked about what story brand is dead. What Donald Miller does over at storybrand but if you would for the the newbies in our our listenership just give us a brief outline of what is storybrand and that’s why is it so compelling and why does it work? And then we have a lot more Deep dive e questions for you. Sure. Yeah. So storybrand is really just following the principles of stories which are not new. I mean they’ve been around for thousands and thousands of years. In fact, our brains are hardwired to understand stories. And you know, that’s true. If you’re in advertising if you’re in marketing or just listening to people that you like to be around there’s a certain way that we tell stories that helps our brains understand things better. And so storybrand is a seven-part framework. You can actually get the book club if you’re watching here. The book is behind me. It’s a building a story room or you can sign up for an online course or Workshop where they will take you through all seven parts of the framework. It’s basically it’s a mark And messaging framework, that’ll that’s going to help you clarify your message. So that way your customers will listen and engage and it uses, you know, the basis of kind of what you would call the hero’s journey. So if you’re like a you know, Joseph Campbell fan or anybody anything else like that, you take the screen writing story or a screen writing class. Sorry, it helps you follow that hero’s journey, but in a way that helps your customers want to engage with a grant who man I thought those going to be longer good job. So so just for the sake of argument before we lose people that that automatically think well, I’m not I’m not a marketer or you know, I don’t work at an ad agency and sure are just ready to like click, you know stop on this episode. Yeah. Sorry. I’m not in that our listenership is primarily creative professionals freelance designers, so Before they stopped this why should they stay because how does this apply to them? So if you’re a freelance designer, there’s probably part of your your job where you have to sell yourself to somebody else and it’s very tough to talk about what it is that you do because if you think about it what you are not you’re not really trying to be the best designer out there. You’re trying to be the the designer that gets the job right page designer that gets the job. You’re the designer that gets hired or the designer that gets more money for your job. You’re the desire the designer that needs to communicate the value that you provide your customer. So I would say in general worked with designers before I worked with ad agencies and I think where we go wrong as we think if I just have the best product if I just have the best service of I’m just the best at what I do than people are going to want to hire me but no that’s not true. Because a human brain. We’re not looking for the best. We’re looking for the easiest to understand and we’re looking for the thing that solves not only my external problem which would be I need a new logo I need to do design but my mom Internal problem in the way that I feel. I mean you could just look at not to get too political here. You can just look at you know, the last couple of years of presidential elections and think have we always picked the the president the presidential candidate that is the best or is it the easiest to understand and I could go through just Canada for Canada Canada and show you where their differences are marketing her and how that makes somebody want to choose them. So if you’re a designer who’s sitting out there and you’ve ever said man, my stuff is better than so and so’s but they got the job or they’re making more money anything else like that. The reason is probably because you are not communicating to your potential clients what problem that you actually solve for them. You’re making them probably more about you and how good your stuff is and not how your stuff solves a problem. So, I have one more question. I’m going to actually girl she’s waiting at the vet. So in in relation to that so how might a designer figure out then what their customer actually needs besides. The obvious like well they needed they needed design. They need an ad. They need a logo. You know, how how do I figure out what they need if that’s not what they need? Okay. So here’s the thing is that everyone you run into they have a problem if they want to have solved. So what we try to do is we try to solve that surface-level problem. We think okay, they need a logo. So if I’m your potential client and I say hey Brandy, I wanna hire you and you go great cool, but can I do for you? And you say I need a new logo? We got to start asking the right questions and if you’ve been a designer for a while, you understand that you understand what it means to ask those questions to get the best design, but those questions start even before that process starts in your pitch to be able to figure out and say hey, what are you looking for that new logo? Why are you looking for that new logo? Hey, what are some of the things that you’ve done in the past? Right? Cuz then you’re going to start with your other problems there what Donald Miller would call the external problem is I need a new logo, but that problem is making them feel a certain way, right? They have something that they want inside of them.

00:20:37 – 00:25:10

So like dead. Need a new logo and I need it fast. I need a new logo and man. I’ve had some bad baggage with other designers before that have taken too long or have tried to shove something on me that I didn’t want write those sorts of things that I needed to go go, but I really want to be involved in the process. Those are three or four different clients that need three or four different pitches. That’s a really understanding that and stepping into that and finding out what those programs are takes a lot more work on the front end to really just ask in mind for those situations Juliet. Yeah. I said you’re waiting your daddy know I think that’s a great point and they’ve also kind of helps you separate from the scarcity mentality of believing that like you’re in competition with every other designer every other creative in your industry because once you start looking at the specific questions of your specific target market you realize that you may offer the same service to someone else but your people are asking do they have other jobs? Like deeper issues that they’re dealing with that you can help them we have and it just it just helps differentiate yourself and not feel that pressure of well, everything else is also doing logos and we’re all after the same people. Well, when you really dig in there you start to see that it’s different people with different questions. Yeah, and you can and it also helps you to say no to certain clients wage, right? So every client is in a very empowering because like if I were to come to you Brandon I said, hey, I need you to design me a new logo and you’re like great cool and you give me your price point and I’m like, oh jeez, you suck. I can go to fiber and I can get somebody who’s going to go for $10. How many of us is designers or creatives have heard that and you can really you just want to like, I know you want to reach through the phone and strangle them. I want to go well U can suck and you should write well, but that’s the thing is because what you’ve realized is you’re solving a different problem for them cuz their problem is I want something cheap right way. Solve a problem your problem that you’re solving Brandy is probably something different. We want something that yeah, you want something that transcends you want something that connects you on something that resonates all of those things. But if I as a business owner, I may not care because I might be a plumber and know if that’s any plumbers out there but like I might be a plumber and I don’t care what my logo looks like because my name is a a plumbing so I can be listed first to the yellow page right Pages. Just kidding. That’s why if you think about all those different I think about all the time exactly. So but then they go while I want a new life go but what they’re really asking for is I need something to slap on my truck that’s cheap. I don’t care about all the other stuff in your process and that should be empowering for you to go. Oh, then I don’t need to do business with you guys. And that’s fine because you’re not my target market and I’m not I’m not right for you. Yeah, we talked about we’ve talked about before on this podcast. I’m not sure if it was I think it was before Julie came on but there’s no such thing as a client from hell. It’s just the the wrong client for you. Naturally. That’s that’s when you’re you’re not communicating clearly. So I mentioned just a tiny bit before we you actually came on that you helped me kind of iron out some of the things that I I always kind of knew about but wasn’t sure how to say them. So, how do you how would you say that like somebody that is kind of going through their entrepreneurial Journey might be able to translate the story brand framework into like a social media strategy or a website or you know, anything more digital that they yeah, they kind of have the opportunity to change on a whim and they can kind of get lost in that process. Well, yeah, that’s a great question. Let me start by the first part where it’s like, you know, you said that you and I work together off. Help you. I mean, I didn’t give I don’t think I gave you anything new. It’s just it’s all up there in your brain and you just needed somebody to pull it out in a different way or even just to show it to you. Right? Cuz sometimes it’s like unless you hey, look look at this and you’re going oh I’m saying it that way or just to repeat it back and so in some ways, you know, this is what Leela fever off give her a call the curse of knowledge. It means that you’re just too close to what you do. So, you know in the same thing that you know, Julie you were talking about is like you can kind of be in your work and you you start to think like, oh, I’m the one in the bedroom like you just you can’t separate yourself from the work.

00:25:10 – 00:30:18

So the nice thing about the survey and process is it helps you put down things not from your perspective, but from your perspective clients perspective and that helps you to be able to separate just a little bit and realize that that I know my stuff, you know your stuff at a level like eight nine ten, and the problem is your dog. Clients are making purchasing decisions. They’re choosing a designer and they know about a level maybe a two or three about design and even when you think you’re talking about your offerings in a way that you’re completely dumbing it down to bringing it down to like a level six or seven and still way over my head. So when you talk about kerning and typography and I say font and you mean no type you know what I’m like baby type faith-based like I don’t care at all. I’m a plumber remember like I just need something for my so that’s the thing that helps you do helps. You really take yourself out say like and here’s the thing about creative Pursuits. So designers writers videographers artists anything like that. Like I’m it’s it’s about me because it’s about my muse and I’m out of creating and doing all this kind of stuff. But in reality your client doesn’t care about any of that. And so when you start talking it’s about me and it’s about me and it’s about me it’s about me then they just start tuning out cuz there’s like oh God I just found a hero, you’re a hero. I like watching Hero Stories. But what I’m looking for is I’m looking for a guide to come and help me. And so when you can start to reframe what you do in a way that provides value for your customer or client, so don’t say hey, I’ve got the best-looking design right? I’ve got designs that drive sales right? I’ve got I don’t tell I don’t write stories. I write things that that evoke emotion that compel people to make purchasing decisions. So if your client what do you want to hear a designer that’s an award-winning designer or does I’m not a designer that designs items that sell you know, the designs things that sells your product right here that you design things that sell my product. Yeah. So that’s how you use it to talk about it down that reframes. It’s so for your social media and this is what happens to you gotta decide in my in my designer influencer or in my designer that actually wants to sell things and get my product cuz if it’s about me and I’m an influencer wage. Being influenced on social media. That’s awesome. Then when you’re wondering why am I not getting new clients out of this? Well, maybe because you’re doing too many about me posts and instead of going how do I provide them? How do I provide more value for my perspective clients? How can I brag about not the design that I made but how can I brag about how this design helped really resonate with a client customer, right? And he’ll really represented the client. So if I can talk through and I say I made this design here’s what happened. I had a client coming to me. Here’s the problem that they were going through. Here’s what they were facing. Here’s how I stepped in and helped them through that problem together. We came up with this design and now we’ve now we’ve applied it in these ways and now they’re sales have gone up or down now they’ve done this or they’ve done that. So you’re talking about your client success, but the key is retirement their client Success Through the fact that your design help them achieve that success right now. What do I want to do? I go home. Want that? I want to hire you. How do I do that? Yeah, it becomes less about your ego and more about them. Julie. Do you want to add anything before I move rollover you? Yeah, I think that was one of the biggest things when I first found out about storybrand was it just like took that pressure off of like I’m not someone who likes to talk about how great my work is and so I just felt really awkward doing that and I was like, how do I sell it without sounding the sales e and I just hated that I don’t like being sold to that way. So I didn’t want to sell other people that way and when I found the story brand framework, I was like, oh my goodness this just like it makes so much sense and it just takes a huge amount of pressure off of you because it’s not about you anymore and it just makes it so much easier and and anyone can tell a story like it’s just so easy. Yeah, how many times have you felt as a dog? Diner that you’re like on opposite sides of a table or a jousting match with your client or prospective client, right? You’re just playing ping pong back and forth. But in reality when you can actually get together and look at the problem and say okay what problem are you facing and you can say okay and you stay inside side shoulder-to-shoulder with your client and now it doesn’t become about your design. It becomes about the problem that you’re trying to sneak mutually and so you can even use a storybrand framework to help in that creative process with the client and somewhat to help convince the client if there is a design that you believe is really helping to solve that problem because you can start to talk about it and not ways that our designer speak which your non-designer people don’t care about right but you talk about it in a way that’s going to provide that value to the client and it’s not about your ego either.

00:30:18 – 00:35:06

I think that’s wrong. Let’s talk just a little bit about the the importance and the power of story in general and maybe explore a little bit about who is the hero and who is dead. Guide and what do these roles and mean as a creative entrepreneur as a creative professional? Yeah, so you can read more about the seven-part framework in the book that’s you know, it’s super easy to do that. But just a quick overview, you know, you’ve got the hero and you’ve got the guide every story has a hero and most every story that’s any good has a guide as someone else that comes in to help the hero get what they want. So if you think about it and every story think about any hero the best stories have Heroes that are flawed right? I mean We complain about stories or we used to talk about plot holes and stories where the hero is perfect and can do anything else because the key is if you don’t have any tension if you don’t have a problem in the story a problem to solve then there is no story. Yeah, so you got the guide the guy I mean you got the hero the hero has a problem so that he took to meet somebody that’s outside of them in any story. So that’s your Obi-Wan Kenobi. That’s your Yoda, you know Katniss had Haymitch or Woody from cheers, whatever. You know that like you get it right. I mean, what do you from cheers off? So there’s like an outside force that can help the hero give they want now here’s what happens is as a brand we try to position ourselves as the hero but people don’t wash a hero they want a guide and we go back to the presidential conversation. Right? We we actually have people that run for office that our war heroes that are decorated war heroes. Like John McCain right didn’t win right other people that are like that that don’t win because we’re not looking for a hero and again ignore your political backgrounds, but ya know the concepts the same if you look at if you’re wrong with Bill Clinton, what was his main thing? He wasn’t a war veteran. She wasn’t any of that but he said during one key Town Hall. He looked at a young woman who asked him a question and he said these three words. I feel your best forwards. I feel your pain right right at her and he said I feel your pain I’m with you and I want to help you. Oh, man, and you could ask any political pundit. That’s like Thursday. Is where his candidacy gonna turn to that one. And so when you as a designer or you as anybody who’s in that creative realm can step in as the guide and not the hero, you’re actually the strongest person in the Stone Creamery because you are the one that holds the key to helping that hero get what they want. You are Gandalf think about it. Like you’re the best version of a parent. I mean, I’ve got two kids. I don’t know. Do you have both of you have kids bring it has her baby? Yeah, right, especially like this. I love being the hero but at the same time when I see my kids need something and they don’t have it and I could step in and I could provide them with that thing that they don’t have just the the Angela. You’re the best dad in the world. Because I had the power to provide them with something that they needed. I wasn’t the hero I wasn’t the focal point right? I was the guy that gave them the thing it totally feels better. Yeah, whatever that thing is. That’s your the product that you’re selling. So you need to position yourself as the person who goes. Hey, I see that you’re struggling and I understand that struggle and I’ve helped place people just like you overcome that struggle and I have what it takes to get and that’s where you show like all your you know, your certifications and everything else that I have what it takes to help you overcome that struggle and that’s that’s where we get a chance to work together. And once you know that it goes beyond just your website and how you’re talking and social media just having a conversation with someone. I mean, I talked with a potential client today wash and the first thing we talked about were like the issues that she was dealing with and I was like, I totally get that I like I’m right there with you. I understand you’re not alone. And like here’s all the awesome things we can do to get rid of that stuff and make you know, what your end goal is happen. It was a really easy conversation to have faith that I know that’s like what I need to be talking about and I bet if you have conversations with successful clients like the clients that you love and we have again and again again, they’re probably not saying they you know, Julie did the best work. I mean, they probably aren’t Julie did the best work and deliver this or whatever like that. They’re talking about how you make them feel right? And that’s what I listen to talk about. I you know, I don’t care what they say like, oh, she was the best photographer like whatever that doesn’t matter to me as much as somebody saying that like, their their fears were relieved that their issues were solved because I was there to help them.

00:35:06 – 00:40:05

Yeah. I was afraid of this Julie stepped in help me out. And this is what happened and I couldn’t be happier, right? Cuz again, they’re not going to explain at that level. Antenna, whatever it is that you do others design or photography. You know, they’re not going to say oh man the f-stop that’s used on that photo was just it was so it was perfect but not to say that they’re going to say like our wedding day was amazing, right? We have memories to last a lifetime. That’s what they say to photographers. They don’t talk about your technical expertise. They talk about how you did what you did to make them feel better off or to increase their revenue or their sales or whatever. It happens to be. Well that you were just quicker right or that you were just nice like those are the things that will separate you that aren’t necessarily anything to do with how proficient you are at your craft, right? And that’s where you can really start to embrace like your own voice and how you approach like a similar problem and understanding that like how you approach someone story is going to be special and that that’s what you can really sell. So I I know that Julie like had a couple of questions that she’s waiting. Ask and then I asked the remainder of mine as a part of the framework, of course the hero encounters some sort of difficulty a problem that they need to overcome and the guide is there to help them through that. So when you’re writing your own your own copy for your website or you know, whatever. How do you address the problem and fully show the problem without getting too negative and kind of bumping people out. That’s a great question. So if you think about it in the story, right what you don’t want is you don’t want a tragedy, right? Cuz a tragedy doesn’t happy ending a tragedy means there was a problem the problem got worse and it got worse and worse and worse and then people died and it was it was like terrible and it made you cry, right? That’s no good. What we want is we offer happy ending obviously, right? So the nice thing is is no matter how bad the the struggle is and How Deep The Depths are as long as it has an equal reaction for happiness or Thursday. Long as you can illustrate clearly how your product or service helps that person avoid those bad things then you’ll be fine. So here’s what happens as most people that I interact with them. I think things are too negative when in reality, they’re not even negative enough because if you don’t address the problem if the hero can’t see that you understand their problem. They don’t think that you could solve their problem. They’ll move they’ll move on. Yeah. So what I say is like negativity or or failure or the problem, it’s kind of like salt if you don’t have salt it’s bland I don’t want it. If you have too much salt in something it’s off the powering and spit it out. But you have to clearly illustrate. Here’s the problem and clearly illustrate how connect the dots between how your product or service solves that problem and then you show them things show them success which is hey if you take this thing if you do this thing if you hire me if you click by now that’s going to give you this success and it’s going to help you avoid failure. Like this, right and so think about any major commercial that’s really really good. It does a great job of telling you this is the potential problem you could face but if you buy the product you’re going to face this success and you’re going to avoid like all states grape. You’re going to avoid Mayhem like me, right? Yeah, they find a funny way of making the I mean that the guys wrecking people’s cars and officers and burning down houses. Like that’s a funny way, but it shows the problem and they very clearly say go with Allstate to avoid Mayhem like me write down. Yeah, and then when when you’ve clearly like showed the problem and showed the solution and you’re you’re ready to ask them to move forward with you, what do you think are some really strong calls-to-action specifically on your website. I know that’s something that I struggle with is social media like the end of a post. Yeah like yeah, you just offered value. What are what are good calls-to-action wage? Yeah, yeah call to action. I love thank you so much, but asking call-to-action cuz so many times we’re afraid to ask for the sale right because I used to be me and and I resonate I don’t walk across too salesy, but the difference is when when you haven’t done a good job of really stepping in and saying hey, I see that you have a problem. I have something here that’s going to solve it. Would you like it? Like that’s not saying that’s I recognize your need. I have something to solve your problem and I wouldn’t willing to provide it for you at would you like that? That’s not sales e it’s when you come across and you have the best thing and you need this page, you’re nothing without this like that’s those our sales a pieces. Right? Right. Yeah, 10:00 boss babes to join my company and you’re like no, you’re not telling me how you’re making my life better with this product.

00:40:05 – 00:45:14

So yeah, that’s one thing second thing is specifically when it comes to your website or when it comes to your digital space pretend. It’s a recent retail space. I have to actually tell people like think it’s a retail space and don’t know. Hide the cash register. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched any of those shops where and you know, you’re walking around you’ve got your stuff and you’re like looking trying to figure out where do I pay? Where do I go to pay or literally off to be this weekend? I walked up to the wrong place and she’s like the registers over here. And I was like, I didn’t know I was supposed to know right in these situations where it’s like there are people that I obviously want to give you money. How can I give you money and they make it difficult for you to give them money, you know or in your email, so you’ll just keep going and it’s like after line one or two on somebody that go yes, I’m sold. I don’t have a link that says contact me and they can’t find it anywhere. It’s like I’m ready. And by the time you have to keep searching their website or searching your social media to figure out how to contact them. I’m done so long, I would say that so number one. You’re not coming across sales. If you’re actually solving a problem providing value right number to don’t hide the cash register. So on your on your website and log Just most designers hate me for this but I say never go a full scroll without having your call-to-action button should also it’s possible to still make it look good. Yes, we should have one call to action not ten calls to action, right? You don’t want 10 different things you want them to do you want one call to action that’s obvious an obvious spot to click. So for those of you who are into like UFC fights all that sort of stuff like that user experience at user interface, you know, it needs to be easy cuz if I don’t see that button that says contact me that says by now that says something very obvious. It’s much easier for me to click on a red X in the corner than it is to scroll through and find things on your website. So yeah, would you say this is kind of a more specific follow question, but for instance if I had on a website, like I just finished explaining to people that their elopement day isn’t going to be boring and impersonal like we can make it super tailored to them and authentic to them. And if I had something like are you ready to plan your epic elopement day or something? Like that is a question like that a little too ambiguous. Does it need to be a stronger calling action or do you think that’s okay. I think that’s okay in support of the call to action. Okay call to action should be the same everywhere on your website and it should be obvious what’s gonna happen when I click it. So if you said hey, are you ready to make sure that your elopement day goes off without a hitch, you know salary whatever you’re going to say that’s pretty schedule an appointment now, but just be playing about it schedule an appointment now so schedule appointment now scheduled appointment. I’ll schedule appointment as I scroll schedule an appointment now, that’s what it should say that’s going to go right to your scheduler so faith in the book. I think they bring it up this way, but I call it the will you marry me button actually Don calls delete button, but I like to say to you so, you know a master you can right. Yeah, exactly and somebody comes up to you and Ed. You know and wants to marry you and they said they look at you and they say all the same things that these lame calls actions say so like want to learn more what’s weird and awful mental picture. Like I just see a guy on his on me with the with the ring box opening. Would you like to learn more start a conversation with you? Weirdo? Let’s put it there. I’ve been waiting for months for you to pop the sexual question by the time you need to get down on you. So so really by the time you need to get down on the metaphorical one knee and open a box and say this is what I have for you. Will you marry me you have to make it plain and simple and you asked that question and it’s a yes-or-no. So it’s schedule a call. It’s by now. It’s booked an appointment. It’s talked to Brandy. It’s something that’s obvious that lets me know what it is. Cuz if you say learn more, I don’t know what that means and don’t get too cute cuz this is what cute cute doesn’t sell. Yeah, if you go, like if you go, you know multiple different boxes that say different things at all. Go to the same spot. Hey, we should talk now don’t wait let you know like they don’t add little cute things just make it simple and obvious and clear. What’s going to happen. Awesome. Thank you. That’s all really great answers about that. You can pull up your website. We just look at it right now, John maybe the end. We’ll see if we can we can always do like it’ll be super fun to do like a follow-up and yeah and let you like do it off live like show like how this actually works. That’d be really fun. I had kind of a couple of follow-up questions as well. Where does the call-to-action differ on that? Same say that same website with them like a freebie or something that you’re trying like a lead generator type thing because that’s not going to be a schedule a call that’s going to be that’s going to be different.

00:45:14 – 00:50:23

So, how does that work? Get within this ecosystem. That’s a great question. So you have two different calls to action. I know I said there’s one but there’s two different types. There’s a direct call to action. Will You Marry Me Marry direct? That means we are done dating age. It’s time to cross that threat can answer maybe to that. You know, maybe it’s like humor me and this is probably what every guy would say or would I would say to re guy who’s prospectively going to ask a woman. You don’t ask this question unless you know the answer to my gambling with this one unless you want to be on some Instagram face, you know paid by the time you say, I’m booked an appointment. You better be confident about what you’ve written there, right? You gotta think that they’re going to say. Yes. The other one is called a transitional call to action. This just keeps the relationship going. This is like we’re going to keep dating. This is I need to know you a little bit more and so those are the types of things where you going to give them a PDF where you’re going to you know, give them you’re going to book a free consult where you’re going to do something like that. You’re going to give them some sense of value that says dead. You’re going to give me some an email address and I’m going to give you some value right that is a transitional that way you can keep the relationship going because they’re not ready yet to buy anything. So that’s where the difference if you you know, you’re you’re off your quizzes other things like that. By the way, if you ever do that online and you enter your e-mail in for a quiz, that’s so they can continue to Market to you afterwards. If you do in case you didn’t already know that choice, maybe you should tell your parents that right. Oh my gosh, every every week I get a call from my mother saying I got this email. Yeah. So opening mom off. It’s not from Apple. Yeah, so, okay. So this is actually something that I’ve been wondering personally and okay, I can obviously ask this during our own sessions, but I thought it might be beneficial for the audience. So how do you sort of test a call to action on on like a story or something on Instagram because on Instagram I have found personally that it’s not always. Schedule a call sometimes it’s like what do you have to offer this conversation or having around the thing that’s going on or the post that I just did that’s maybe not. I don’t necessarily want you to call me right now. We’re schedule something. It’s just like how how do you sort of test? What what good call to action is like an A B testing sort of thing? Yeah. So the I would say that the the basis of your call to action right would be I need to know that by me taking action. I’m going to get the solution to my problem. So a lot of times we do the wrong thing where you know, cuz I’ve written plenty of of you know, social media copy where I’m trying to gain engagement. I want people to talk to me. I’m right response. But what I’m doing is I’m assuming that they want to answer that question. I’m assuming that that by answering that question. It’s providing them value. I’m assuming that that they want to do that one. Some people just don’t they don’t want to you know what I mean? So if you’re saying hey, what do you think about this topic? But in reality, all you’re doing is you’re just collecting information for yourself or you’re collecting information for your book or your next PDF or for next project like unless they’re your friends or they would actually like you you’re not going to gain engagement. But you know, you see that’s where like if you have a big following like if you are an influencer and your retweeting or your re-sharing or you’re sharing and commenting on or you’re saying hey, I’m going to select one of these comments and we’re going to feature on a podcast right now. You’re seeing an exchange where if I participate in the discussion, I’m going to get something in return. So that’s what I would say is the wage. France is step back and look is this thing that I’m asking them to do something that’s for them or is it for me or do I think it’s for them and it’s really not cuz I’m making some assumptions they actually want to do this, right? Yeah. Well and I guess I would say and again this is all this is all very self-serving at the moment. But I think that it’s I think it’s valuable. I feel like when you’re just trying to get people to engage. Yep, it is so that like you get good engagement, right so that your post is shown more. But also I genuinely like want to talk to my audience. So like I’m constantly asking different versions of birth of like the same question or like a number of different questions and it’s really hard to gauge like is there is there like a set copy trick to life understanding the kinds of things that people will want to answer as them being the hero like, how do we make the questions about them without sounding like we’re just trying to pry them? Open for it personal information. You know, what does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. I think what I would say to that is like, you know, so this is pulling in a little bit as like some garyvee interactions as long it’s going to take time to build right and so like what I really appreciate about what I’ve seen from you brand is like, you know me personally and I responded to one of your your poles or you know, one of your questions and you’ll do a bath that a personal response for me and I’m like, I wasn’t expecting that but you know, like if you’re going to be someone of influence or someone that’s providing value.

00:50:23 – 00:55:05

It is a little bit of that, you know jab jab jab right hook like your you would talk about or continuing wage, um continue that interaction engagement so rewarding people who actually answer your question is going to help more people answer the question. So it’s a snowball that builds. So I ask you a question. Maybe I only need one person that answers and it’s my mom right? I’m going to respond to her and I’m going to use her thing and say hey I had to follow her or one of you, you know, somebody in the in the design speech World send this page. So now I’m using that and now accusing people’s rage. So if I comment maybe my comments going to get used right and then then they take that step and they comment in and now it’s your responding to them. So now if I, I, I might be used but it’ll definitely get a personal response. Oh, okay. I’m getting something. I’m getting something. I’m getting something. Okay. I think it’s it’s following up your intention with a way to actions. Yeah, and I do I do that with everybody. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I say like, so if you’re saying this is actually for your benefit right that I want to know because I want to hear from you because I want to hear from the audience your actions afterwards have to have to prove that on social media and that’s really going to help people less about like the questions that you’re asking and it’s more what do you do after that whether you get answers or not home, right? Yeah. I mean on the front end again on the front end are the questions you have to realize like are the questions by them answering it. Is that going to solve a problem for them? Okay, that’s the front page. And the motivation for it and then the back end. It’s what am I doing to follow up to let them know that I’m actually positioned as the guide and I’m not position that the as a hero just tossing about questions. Totally. That’s really helpful. Yeah Faith. Julie had a question about copy to think I asked most of them but just kind of a more general question is do you have any tips for somebody who is kind of DIY eyeing this they’ve read the book and gone through the frame work and now they’re ready to start writing the copy. Yeah. So we’re going to write copy on a website. That’s a that’s a key one. Okay. So let’s say you’ve read the book. There’s plenty of free resources like on YouTube if you search story breaking and you could see there’s a couple of business made simple things. I’ve done a million puts out and that sort of thing which by the way like subscribe to his email subscribe. I know open any except for his birthday cuz they’re always full of value. And so so helpful and like listen to the podcast watches YouTube videos just take it all in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He has lots of dead. He’s obviously the master of this but I like to that things are short that you don’t have to sit in front of the computer. Make sure to get the value so that that would be the thing is subscribe. So like you see on other people’s websites. They have an opt-in somehow, you know or download this resource for your email. If it’s somebody that you like and respect do that and then open those emails and study them I would also say that we had were great books right how to write copy that sells this is awesome. And then we lefevers the guy I talked about before the art of explanation. This helps you get things really concise, but those are two great things. Obviously, if you’re not like a writer in your knowledge this like your full-time thing, you can always talk to a guide a little self-serving here, you know, you can hire a guy by the way, that would be the thing. I mean, honestly I subscribe to political candidates and I subscribe to their email addresses and as disgusting as some of them are at the same time. If you read and dissect them you go what you’re doing. I mean I see that your dog. A ton of people that have no idea that you’re tricking their brains into donating or into buying the thing and it’s all in the language that you want to use and the helps you understand. Okay. How do I feel about this particular person or Brand This Way, how are they talking about themselves this way do I want to align myself with the way that they’re portraying themselves? Well, no. Okay, then don’t use those words, but understand how they’re doing it off early. You can work through that. The other thing that the free tip I’ll give you is search past or Pastor the pastor framework. That is a great just starter that if you just look for that acronym it’ll walk you through p a s t o r a six-part framework for writing an email for writing something like that that you can actually walk through that goes along with this program framework, but it’s it’s a great way to write like write a sales letter or a good email as far as a website is concerned. This is what I would say and especially for creatives and designers is we get into things that look cute but you have to separate that out. You have two separate wage. Kind of designed do I like and what’s effective because when you think through what are the websites that I actually use and click most of the time they’ll be following a similar Frameworks mature and framework.

00:55:05 – 01:00:02

There are not going to be following the best design things or you know, what like things new and fancy Yes. Yes again cute is sometimes the opposite of clubs here and you want clear cuz if you don’t have Clarity Clarity is that is the thing that’s going to solve everything because confusion will make sure that your perspective client will go to someone else because again, I’m not looking for the best product or service. They’re looking for the person or the product of the service that is easiest to understand. So I get this all the time too with clients or they say well doesn’t seem kind of basic. Am I just explaining the same thing, but nobody else that I do does it’s like yes, but you’re explaining it in a way that’s easy to understand and if it’s easy to understand they’re going to go for it. So I mean think about any restaurant you go to that’s why they’re dead. List like McDonald’s now, they don’t show you everything on the menu. They show you the most popular things and the things they want you to buy at that particular time. So you can order things that are in the menus, but they want to make it as easy as possible for you to see burger by burger, right? That’s it. So figure out what is the problem that you solve? What do you want to sell and use that? So if you like to sell senior photo packages and not wedding photo packages talk about your senior photo packages, if you want to only talk to Brides talk about that. If you only want to do Event Photography do that like it seems so simple but because we want to get cute and because we want to throw everything in there and make you know, some websites do dirt around. It’s it’s no good. I kind of rambled there sir. No, well, that’s okay. Oh, it’s all valuable. I just get on my soapbox. Okay, we’re happy about it. So we will definitely have you on here again, whether it’s like a bonus episode to talk through maybe an actual walk the dog. Maybe Juliana’s websites I mine is pretty much done. But that way we can kind of like let people kind of see maybe what we did and look through Julie’s and see what maybe questions she has but here’s here’s something for you to consider. Yeah, I’ll put you on the spot. But if you want to offer to your listeners, I will go through one two, three websites from your listeners if you want to provide value for them as well. You heard it here first folks Amazing Story brand expert Eric Williams is offering 3, what? What do you call them analysis off here? We come website reviews just go through and it takes about 5 to 10 minutes and we just scroll through the website and we say all the things that are working and provide on, you know on the spot off the cuff feedback to what should be done. And the nice thing is when you see a couple of other websites being reviewed it helps you identify some of the common common problems in your own website. Awesome. Hey, that’s really great. Thank you so much for offering that if you guys are interested in that just email log. Hello at design speaks podcast. And I will put you in touch with Eric and we are just hitting the end here of our time. But what other what other things do you have to say about yourself where can people find you all that good stuff. Okay. So if you’re looking for a new website, if you’re looking just to clarify what it is that you do or maybe any of these questions came up and said well, I don’t really understand the problem solving four people cuz I’m just like a designer and I just take photos. Whatever that happens to be. You can go to 2 1/2 Consulting Services. Com 212 Consulting Services, The number 212 Convention Services. Com and you go ahead and reach out and we can schedule a free thirty-minute evaluation just kind of talk through some of the things that you’re looking for. But what I love to do is I love to help individual entrepreneurs businesses to clarify what it is that they do and help them really do what they do better. So if you’re having a hard time talking about what it is that you do you need a new website. You just need some copy or you just need an outside voice to home. Get you going let me know. I promised at the end of the 30 minutes. You will be like just waiting to give him your money and do more minutes. So thank you so much for being here. I look forward to more conversations with you and our listeners. I hope aren’t going to drown and all the amazing value that you offer today, but hopefully in a good way if they do I will see you later. Well, Julie, yes the power of story and guiding people who are journey is so important and it can really change how you approach your business and your design work and I think we probably easily could have talked to Eric for like two more hours. Yeah, but we will we will for sure have him back. I think that a lot of what we do is perhaps around story wraps around. Yeah this whole framework and so it will be for sure beneficial for everyone and now that we’re doing video we can do things like video walkthrough birth. Of my gosh. I’m so excited about that. So we’re going to like hang up and schedule that right now. So yes, that’s all for this week.

01:00:15 – 01:01:28

Off again, that was Club day off with wish you well, you can find this song and lots of other inspiring music on our Spotify playlist just search music from design speaks. All right, everybody. That’s our epic for today. If you enjoy this show and want to support us become one of our exclusive patrons over at patreon.com design speak or you’ll have access to some extended episode and fun bonus content design speak is produced by Kenneth kniffen and Dakota audio production by the podcast days. Thanks to Colin from vespertine for our theme music. You can find vespertine on Apple music and Spotify design speaks is a project of Brandy see design. It is recorded and produced in the shadow of the watermelon pink Sandia Mountains in Albuquerque, New Mexico. You can leave us a note on Instagram at design speaking podcast, and you can find all current and past episodes at design speaks podcast, Thanks again for listening until next time.